The bundle is a must imho. Dev response is great.
UPDATE: Went back & tried to give it another shot w/response, but still found it clunky. Maybe instead of just providing ONLY one scenario hand example, offer the ability to change hands to make it more engaging, show what the outs are and what hands they would make up, calculate the outs & visually show the math with equity vs how it could be applied vs various pot odds instead of just an FAQ style page (which could basically sum everything up for the current design), and keep score or history like a game, for the example to reinforce the learning otherwise just knowing the well known rules of 4&2 is already enough. Also, learning from feedback instead of being overly defensive over the years may have led to a much better app, especially since there is a common trend among several reviews imho. Best of luck.
Update: Sincerely appreciate dev response to concerns and ideas. Updated rating and initial comments accordingly. Even using odds quizzer, I’m often left scratching my head wondering what cards are being considered in the apps calculation when my estimate is graded wrong. Suggestion there might be to include the outs when the user answers 48%, but the correct answer is 64% and the grade is F, for example. Maybe I’m missing another info button like the Tutorial below that explains it? Maybe it would help to have a section under help that simply explains how best to use the app to get started, like look at the hand, then look for similar pre-flop matchups in tutorial to get the odds, etc. That’s when it started “clicking” for me a little. Thanks.
Update: I sincerely appreciate the diligent correspondence from the developer to help me understand the scope of the apps that make up the bundle of three. At this point, the best suggestion I might offer might be to utilize our correspondence to create some form of better instructions to show how the three apps link together and how a new user, unfamiliar with their intended scope, should/would connect the dots from cradle to grave to save some time from others who might be willing to take the time to go down the rabbit hole and really try to learn this stuff. Again, thanks for sticking with me and best wishes. :-)
Response from developer
=== REPLY 4 ===: Thanks for updating your review once again. Getting 3 stars and detailed feedback from a tough/high-standards grader is worth more to us than getting say 4 or 5 stars from an easy grader : ). We will see if we can make this Teacher app easier to follow. Won't make any guarantees. I think one aspect here is that imo the Teacher app is actually the hardest / most-technical of our 4 iPhone apps, as it's trying to do something challenging, teach you how to calculate the odds from scratch using math, vs. just memorizing the odds for various situations. But we will keep your feedback in mind. Thanks for the discussion. Best of luck, -RJ === REPLY 3 ===: Thanks for updating your review again; going from 1 star to 3 star is a big improvement for this app! And thanks for the discussion, it's been a while since a customer discussed things in detail. 1) Re. "Even using odds quizzer, I’m often left scratching my head wondering what cards are being considered in the apps calculation when my estimate is graded wrong" - The Quizzer app does give info on this, it tells you the outs and counter-outs when it can. E.g. for one of the post-flop basic scenarios: QT vs. 62, Flop: T62. Enter a wrong "F" answer, the app writes this at the bottom of the score alert: "Player1 has 5 QueenTen outs and usually picks up 3 additional TwoPair counterfeit outs on the turn. Player2 has 4 FullHouse counter-outs on Player1's Queen outs". Imo this is excellent detailed info on the outs and counter-outs; such info is given for all of the post-flop scenarios. For pre-flop scenarios, and for the (much more complex) hand range scenarios, the app doesn't give this kind of detail, because it's kind of out of scope for this app. Anyway for preflop situations we're kind of expected to know by heart that AA vs KK (pair vs lower pair) is 80/20, AK vs lower pair is around 50/50, etc. However the Teacher app does go further and gives a method for pre-flop situations using the Rule of 10 & 8 (a rule we invented). 2) Continuing from 1) above, ok so now you see that Player1 has 5 (or round up to 6) outs. You can cancel this dialog, then tap OutsChart, and the chart shows that for 6 outs on the flop the equity is 24%. That's a good starting point for your final answer (the Teacher app goes into greater detail on a final answer using its 3 steps). 3) I think if you keep looking at these apps in full detail, things will get clearer, over time. Note that the Teacher and Quizzer apps actually aren't our main/big apps; PokerCruncher is, then TournamentCruncher. If you give it some time and look at PokerCruncher, Quizzer, and Teacher in detail, I think things will come together more. Regards, -RJ === REPLY 2 ===: 1) Re. "instead of just providing ONLY one scenario hand example, offer the ability to change hands to make it more engaging" - This is a good suggestion, and our other app Hold'em Odds Quizzer does exactly this, quizzes you on many different and varied scenarios. We didn't see the need to do this in this Teacher app; we felt if you know the method for AA vs KK, ie that each player has 2 outs, use the Rule of 4&2, etc., then you don't really need to be shown KK vs QQ, JJ vs TT, etc. That is, you'll get the idea. It's in our Quizzer app where we mix up the situations much more. The Teacher and Quizzer apps are meant to complement each other in our suite of apps. 2) Re. "and keep score or history like a game, for the example to reinforce the learning" - Good idea; our Quizzer app does exactly this; gives you an A+ .. F score on all of the various quizzes, saves your results/grades so you can track your progress, etc. 3) Re. "Also, learning from feedback instead of being overly defensive over the years may have led to a much better app" - Sorry you felt we're being defensive; we were just saying that this Teacher app does give detailed explanations of its methods, which we don't think you saw on your first usage. Perhaps you are being too sensitive?, in thinking we're being defensive? Good luck in your poker. === REPLY 1 ===: This app does give explanations of how it comes up with the equity results. Did you tap the "Start Step-By-Step Tutorial" button for each scenario?; it sounds like you may have missed this. The tutorial leads you through the equity result calculation step by step, for each example scenario in the app. In Step1 you use the Rule of 4&2. In Step2 you estimate the counter-outs equity. And in Step3 you put it all together using some basic math operations to come up with the final equity estimate. There is a separate screen for each of these 3 steps. Not sure what more explanation we could have provided, directly within the app. If you have some suggestions pls write to us at our support email address. Regards, -RJ/PokerCruncher, LLC
Needs Work IMHO - the bundle is better overall.
UPDATE: Went back & tried to give it another shot w/response, but still found it clunky. Maybe instead of just providing ONLY one scenario hand example, offer the ability to change hands to make it more engaging, show what the outs are and what hands they would make up, calculate the outs & visually show the math with equity vs how it could be applied vs various pot odds instead of just an FAQ style page (which could basically sum everything up for the current design), and keep score or history like a game, for the example to reinforce the learning otherwise just knowing the well known rules of 4&2 is already enough. Also, learning from feedback instead of being overly defensive over the years may have led to a much better app, especially since there is a common trend among several reviews imho. Best of luck.
Update: Sincerely appreciate dev response to concerns and ideas. Updated rating and initial comments accordingly. Even using odds quizzer, I’m often left scratching my head wondering what cards are being considered in the apps calculation when my estimate is graded wrong. Suggestion there might be to include the outs when the user answers 48%, but the correct answer is 64% and the grade is F, for example. Maybe I’m missing another info button like the Tutorial below that explains it? Maybe it would help to have a section under help that simply explains how best to use the app to get started, like look at the hand, then look for similar pre-flop matchups in tutorial to get the odds, etc. That’s when it started “clicking” for me a little. Thanks.
Response from developer
=== REPLY 2 ===: 1) Re. "instead of just providing ONLY one scenario hand example, offer the ability to change hands to make it more engaging" - This is a good suggestion, and our other app Hold'em Odds Quizzer does exactly this, quizzes you on many different and varied scenarios. We didn't see the need to do this in this Teacher app; we felt if you know the method for AA vs KK, ie that each player has 2 outs, use the Rule of 4&2, etc., then you don't really need to be shown KK vs QQ, JJ vs TT, etc. That is, you'll get the idea. It's in our Quizzer app where we mix up the situations much more. The Teacher and Quizzer apps are meant to complement each other in our suite of apps. 2) Re. "and keep score or history like a game, for the example to reinforce the learning" - Good idea; our Quizzer app does exactly this; gives you an A+ .. F score on all of the various quizzes, saves your results/grades so you can track your progress, etc. 3) Re. "Also, learning from feedback instead of being overly defensive over the years may have led to a much better app" - Sorry you felt we're being defensive; we were just saying that this Teacher app does give detailed explanations of its methods, which we don't think you saw on your first usage. Perhaps you are being too sensitive?, in thinking we're being defensive? Good luck in your poker. === REPLY 1 ===: This app does give explanations of how it comes up with the equity results. Did you tap the "Start Step-By-Step Tutorial" button for each scenario?; it sounds like you may have missed this. The tutorial leads you through the equity result calculation step by step, for each example scenario in the app. In Step1 you use the Rule of 4&2. In Step2 you estimate the counter-outs equity. And in Step3 you put it all together using some basic math operations to come up with the final equity estimate. There is a separate screen for each of these 3 steps. Not sure what more explanation we could have provided, directly within the app. If you have some suggestions pls write to us at our support email address. Regards, -RJ/PokerCruncher, LLC
Waste of Money
UPDATE: Went back & tried to give it another shot w/response, but still found it clunky. Maybe instead of just providing ONLY one scenario hand example, offer the ability to change hands to make it more engaging, show what the outs are and what hands they would make up, calculate the outs & visually show the math with equity vs how it could be applied vs various pot odds instead of just an FAQ style page (which could basically sum everything up for the current design), and keep score or history like a game, for the example to reinforce the learning otherwise just knowing the well known rules of 4&2 is already enough. Also, learning from feedback instead of being overly defensive over the years may have led to a much better app, especially since there is a common trend among several reviews imho. Best of luck.
Response from developer
=== REPLY 2 ===: 1) Re. "instead of just providing ONLY one scenario hand example, offer the ability to change hands to make it more engaging" - This is a good suggestion, and our other app Hold'em Odds Quizzer does exactly this, quizzes you on many different and varied scenarios. We didn't see the need to do this in this Teacher app; we felt if you know the method for AA vs KK, ie that each player has 2 outs, use the Rule of 4&2, etc., then you don't really need to be shown KK vs QQ, JJ vs TT, etc. That is, you'll get the idea. It's in our Quizzer app where we mix up the situations much more. The Teacher and Quizzer apps are meant to complement each other in our suite of apps. 2) Re. "and keep score or history like a game, for the example to reinforce the learning" - Good idea; our Quizzer app does exactly this; gives you an A+ .. F score on all of the various quizzes, saves your results/grades so you can track your progress, etc. 3) Re. "Also, learning from feedback instead of being overly defensive over the years may have led to a much better app" - Sorry you felt we're being defensive; we were just saying that this Teacher app does give detailed explanations of its methods, which we don't think you saw on your first usage. Perhaps you are being too sensitive?, in thinking we're being defensive? Good luck in your poker. === REPLY 1 ===: This app does give explanations of how it comes up with the equity results. Did you tap the "Start Step-By-Step Tutorial" button for each scenario?; it sounds like you may have missed this. The tutorial leads you through the equity result calculation step by step, for each example scenario in the app. In Step1 you use the Rule of 4&2. In Step2 you estimate the counter-outs equity. And in Step3 you put it all together using some basic math operations to come up with the final equity estimate. There is a separate screen for each of these 3 steps. Not sure what more explanation we could have provided, directly within the app. If you have some suggestions pls write to us at our support email address. Regards, -RJ/PokerCruncher, LLC
Waste of Money
Response from developer
This app does give explanations of how it comes up with the equity results. Did you tap the "Start Step-By-Step Tutorial" button for each scenario?; it sounds like you may have missed this. The tutorial leads you through the equity result calculation step by step, for each example scenario in the app. In Step1 you use the Rule of 4&2. In Step2 you estimate the counter-outs equity. And in Step3 you put it all together using some basic math operations to come up with the final equity estimate. There is a separate screen for each of these 3 steps. Not sure what more explanation we could have provided, directly within the app. If you have some suggestions pls write to us at our support email address. Regards, -RJ/PokerCruncher, LLC
Worth if you buy the €20 pack
It teaches you well what’s probably the easiest method to calculate equity in your head.
Honestly you can learn it without the app. It is just a very nice and straightforward way of learning it on the go.
I like that you can import the hands seamlessly in poker cruncher so that you can easily study them further.
PS: I found that for post flop equity against top pair, counting counter outs is often not needed as the impact on the figure is marginal. Postflop counting counter outs only matters when there are many of them.
Complicated and outdated UI
Response from developer
Hello, Thanks for writing a review. All reviews, 1-star and 5-star, give us new info. and so are great to get. 1) Re. “complicated” and “complex” - This app has to be complicated because it is trying to do something ambitious and technical, show you *how* the odds are calculated, from scratch, using math operations and the Rule of 4&2, etc. Vs. just blindly memorizing the odds for many situations. For example we all know (should know) that AA vs KK preflop is an 80/20 situation; this app is trying to teach you where the 80 and 20 numbers come from, so you can calc the numbers yourself if you wanted to. Similarly for many other important poker situations like TopPair vs FlushDraw, etc. This may be our most complicated and brain-demanding app. 2) Re. “geek” - We’ve been called worse (at least I have). Calc’ing poker odds by doing math is inherently a geeky thing to do. Less geeky would be just to memorize many situations. So if you don’t have some amount of “poker geek” in you then this app isn’t for you to begin with. 3) Re. the UI - Yes this app has a very basic and no-frills UI. That was our chosen design because this app isn’t a game. The main focus is the poker situations and math operations and calculation steps, so we saw no need for a flashy UI. We think the UI and screens are very functional though, e.g. the 3 screens for the 3 main steps involved in calc’ing odds; this is as simple as this complicated task can be. 4) It looks like this app gets reviews across the whole range, 1-star thru 5-star. It looks like people either get what this app is trying to do, or they just don’t. I think that’s expected with an app as technical as this one, as there’s a wide range of people and poker players and thinking styles out there, so it’s perfectly ok. We appreciate all who take the time to write feedback/reviews, whether 1-star or 5-star, as that gives us new info. to consider. Thanks, Regards, -RJ/PokerCruncher
Awesome
Unique Training Tool!
This is the only app I’ve found that both teaches you and gives you practice calculating odds using outs. I’m sure this functionality is buried somewhere in many other Hold Em apps but this is perfect for learning how to calculate odds, implied equity, pot equity, etc.
I would take points off for pretty bad UI (why a slider???, yellow font?) and it doesn’t baby you as it teaches the math, but it’s the only thing out there that will give me the constant practice on the train, waiting for elevator, etc to try to start beating the shark at my local table. THANK YOU!!
Great app
Spent do what it says
Response from developer
Hello, Yes this app uses specific hand situations, and in real life play we don’t know our opponents’ cards. However there’s still value in specific hand situations, because they’re the building blocks that we can use to put together and estimate the odds for more complex hand range situations. For example every good player should know the odds for specific hand situations like AJ vs. QQ pre-flop, or FlushDraw vs. TopPair on the flop. In real life play, we can think in our head e.g. "I think he either has TopPair here or a flush draw". Then our knowledge of the specific hand situations for TopPair and flush draw is valuable here, then we estimate e.g. I think he has TopPair 2/3 of the time and the flush draw 1/3 of the time, and we estimate the total "hand range" situation by averaging. It's not easy by any means to do in your head in real time under pressure in a real hand, but that's why knowing the odds for specific hand situations *cold* / automatic helps us a lot. Regards, -RJ, PokerCruncher, LLC
does what it says
Spent .99 worth .17
Response from developer
We disagree with all 4 of your points. There are many "?" help buttons in all screens that explain what's going on. Each of the 3 calculation steps has clear instructions on what to do. The scenario diversity is a good point, but we feel it's OK to have a limited number of scenarios in this app because it's a teacher app, not a quizzer-type app. The goal is to teach methods, not practice on dozens or hundreds of situations (that's what a quizzer type app would be for). If you understand the general method for say AA vs. KK (higher pair vs. lower pair), then you know the situation for KK vs QQ, JJ vs TT, etc. also; there's no point in repeating those situations in this app. Re. "very vague formula theory" - The formulas used in this app, e.g. the Rule of 4&2, are well-known poker formulas for many years or decades. The formulas and methods in this app are sound and correct. Re. "possibly inaccurate information" - No, everything's correct. Pls. state what you think is incorrect. In general, we believe you don't understand this app and what it's trying to teach yet, so you think it's vague or incorrect. It would be great if you give this app another run. Regards, -RJ/PokerCruncher, LLC
